[16:42:18] {nule} .
[16:51:55] {nule} i love commenting on the bbc site
[16:52:06] {nule} today’s topic is ‘do parents have the right to smack their kids’
[16:52:24] {nule} my response was ‘i don’t know about parents, but I certainly should have the right to smack your kids’
[16:53:10] {baal} nice
[16:53:24] {nule} now let’s see if that one sneaks past their moderators
[16:53:45] {baal} yeah
[16:53:48] {baal} seriously

[12:18:26] {ormus} geez
[12:18:44] {ormus} did you read about this lady fighting for use of her frozen embryos?
[12:18:49] {ormus} in britain
[12:18:51] {nule} no
[12:19:41] {ormus} had ivf performed with her boyfriend before having cancer treatment which would leave her infertile
[12:19:55] {ormus} now she’s infertile, wants to use them, but he withdrew his consent
[12:19:56] {ormus} oof
[12:19:58] {ormus} that sucks
[12:20:31] {nule} hrm…
[12:20:56] {ormus} i was reading about it here:
[12:20:58] {ormus} http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/07/embryos.ruling/index.html
[12:21:38] {nule} i guess I find it a bit surprising that he could withdraw consent
[12:22:17] {ormus} i guess maybe that’d depend on when you considered the embryo a person
[12:22:18] {ormus} ?
[12:23:53] {ormus} i see what you’re saying, though
[12:23:57] {ormus} he made the initial decision
[12:24:04] {ormus} presumably of his own free will
[12:24:23] {nule} i would just think the eggs are hers, fertilized or not
[12:24:45] {ormus} oh
[12:24:46] {ormus} i wouldn’t
[12:24:50] {ormus} especially in europe
[12:25:41] {nule} why’s that?
[12:26:37] {nule} i dunno, i can see why it’s a sticky issue, though
[12:26:42] {ormus} i see much of that coming down to father/mother rights
[12:26:51] {ormus} i think europe is more progressive in that sense
[12:27:00] {ormus} oh yeah, sticky no matter what
[12:27:57] {ormus} and by progressive i mean more of a 50/50 approach on their rights
[12:28:06] {ormus} that’s just my impression
[12:28:59] {nule} i kind of see it like this, irrespective of whatever laws may be involved
[12:29:10] {nule} the sperm’s his, the egg’s hers
[12:29:26] {nule} he consented for the use of the sperm to fertilize the eggs
[12:29:32] {nule} that’s done, right?
[12:29:45] {nule} well, I’d say she could do whatever she wants with the eggs now
[12:29:54] {nule} make an eggcicle (teehee) or whatever
[12:30:14] {ormus} yeah
[12:30:19] {ormus} ouch
[12:30:21] {ormus} that was bad
[12:30:28] {ormus} anyway, i definitely see your point
[12:30:46] {nule} if you saw the embryo as a person that’d make things weird
[12:30:47] {ormus} but…let’s say the embryo was allowed to grow
[12:30:56] {nule} you’d almost have to compel the woman to take it
[12:30:59] {ormus} the parents presumably have 50/50 say over the kid
[12:31:03] {ormus} so why not the embryo?
[12:31:30] {ormus} i know it’s a different
[12:31:31] {ormus} just a thought
[12:31:41] {nule} no it’s interesting
[12:32:05] {ormus} but yeah, once he consented, i wouldn’t have been surprised to see them rule that what’s done is done, either
[12:32:06] {nule} i guess it comes down to what he actually consented to
[12:32:29] {ormus} using that same example, it’s not like he could take back his consent for having a child once it’s born
[12:32:39] {nule} yeah
[12:32:54] {nule} although, I’m for extended the limits on abortion until they’re about 8 y/o
[12:32:58] {ormus} :)
[12:33:08] {nule} but them, I’m racist
[12:33:14] {ormus} yes, you are
[12:33:21] * ormus aborts nule (for once!)
[12:33:22] {ormus} yay!
[12:33:25] {nule} no!
[12:33:27] * nule dies
[12:33:32] * nule left clicks
[12:33:36] * nule runs to the buy zone
[12:33:38] {ormus} ack!
[12:33:40] * nule buys a bullpup
[12:33:44] * ormus runs (period)

—–a bit later—–

[14:23:50] {nule} UK laws allow parties to withdraw consent up until the embryos are implanted
[14:27:37] {nule} and five years to appeal until the embryos are destroyed
[14:27:50] {nule} at least they’re unambiguous
[14:27:59] {nule} but now I’m of the opinion the guy is just being a dick

[08:01:25] *** nule is now known as hurricane_lucifer.
[08:28:45] * hurricane_lucifer devastates the chatroom
[08:55:28] * maximus starts pumping out the chatroom. convinced rebuilding it below8 level is a great idea
[08:55:53] {maximus} c level… that is
[08:56:39] {ormus} .
[08:56:46] {ormus} took me an hour to get to work today
[08:56:47] {ormus} hrmph
[08:57:21] * hurricane_lucifer makes a 180 degree turn and bears back down on the chatroom, picking up speed and becoming a category 6
[08:58:50] * maximus pumps even faster
[08:59:01] * ormus sends hurricane_lucifer toward the equator
[08:59:22] *** hurricane_lucifer is now known as typhoon_lucifer.
[08:59:30] {ormus} why you little…
[08:59:31] {typhoon_lucifer} curse you, ormus
[08:59:38] {ormus} haha!
[09:00:01] *** typhoon_lucifer is now known as nule.
[09:00:34] {ormus} yeah…hurricane katrina is a wake-up call for us to address the issue
[09:00:47] {ormus} to address the issue of building cities on the coast below sea level
[09:00:59] {nule} naw
[09:01:08] {nule} why learn from our mistakes?
[09:01:11] {ormus} right
[09:01:16] {nule} that’s not the american way!
[09:01:17] {ormus} don’t worry..we’ll build it up again
[09:01:21] {nule} the american way is to build bigger levees!
[09:01:24] {nule} larger pumps!
[09:01:31] {nule} more expensive buildings to be leveled!
[09:01:32] {ormus} yeah
[09:02:01] {ormus} some sort of pride taken in holding back mom nature, i guess
[09:02:14] {ormus} and they’ll get slammed again…
[09:09:47] {ormus} anyone else having trouble getting smf to load?
[09:10:43] {nule} sh*t
[09:10:46] {nule} it’s doing that memory thing again

“[Y]ou could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.”
-William Bennett

[10:38:13] {ormus} did you see what this William Bennett dude said? stirred up a bit of a storm
[10:38:34] {baal}
[10:38:34] {nulenator} �
[10:38:37] [Last message repeated 3 more times]
[10:39:58] {baal} holy crap
[10:40:01] {baal} well, for good reason it seems
[10:40:54] {ormus} did you read the entirety of what he said?
[10:40:59] {baal} yeah
[10:41:06] {baal} sounds like he tried to cover himself
[10:41:10] {baal} at least a little
[10:41:30] {ormus} i would argue the comment might not be racist
[10:41:42] {baal} you could
[10:41:51] {baal} well
[10:41:51] {baal} maybe
[10:42:00] {baal} basing a generization on race
[10:42:39] {ormus} i wish people would refute comments like that with facts rather than calls of racism, etc.
[10:43:45] {nulenator} we would be better off sterilizing all republicans
[10:43:56] {ormus} that’s racist!
[10:44:05] {baal} too late for me, I’ve already spawned!
[10:44:12] {ormus} i was actually trying to come up with an equivalent like that…
[10:44:23] {baal} not that republicans today stand for anything that they used to when i actually joined the party
[10:44:33] {baal} I don’t think I’ve changed THAT much
[10:45:08] {nulenator} they pretty much always stood for looking after the interests of corporations more than people
[10:45:21] {nulenator} I was at a party the other day when a vocal republic said, ”
[10:45:40] {nulenator} my heart goes out to delta airlines – to see a company struggling like they are”
[10:45:45] {baal} heh
[10:45:48] {nulenator} it’s a f*cking company, dude!
[10:45:54] {nulenator} like it gives a sh*t about you?!
[10:45:56] {ormus} yeah, that’s pretty bad
[10:46:00] {baal} well, it’s more about balance than anything
[10:46:11] {baal} and thigns are definitly swung too far to the corporate side
[10:46:18] {nulenator} corporations were never meant to be ‘super citizens’
[10:46:25] {baal} I’m referring more to the moral stuff
[10:46:35] {nulenator} they can’t vote after all, why can they buy votes?
[10:46:46] {baal} heh
[10:46:57] {baal} well, you can thank our *entire* political system for that
[10:47:06] {nulenator} sure
[10:47:15] * nulenator nulenates the entire government
[10:48:03] {baal} heh
[10:48:13] {baal} honestly I think the dems are just as corrupt
[10:48:27] {ormus} they’re all dirty to an extent, yeah
[10:48:30] {ormus} both parties piss me off
[10:48:32] {baal} they’re just using the outrageous behavior of the republicans to foster rage
[10:48:56] {ormus} R’s are so short-sighted it scares me…and in bed with big biz…the D’s have been reduced to whiners, it seems
[10:49:07] {baal} and the republicans are playing the “moral majority” and “hard workers” against the evil city-dwellers
[10:49:26] {baal} they’re both in bed with business
[10:49:34] {ormus} to an extent, sure
[10:49:39] {ormus} you need campaign money, after all
[10:49:52] {baal} I think our system is set up so when you get to the point that you’re in federal governemnt you’re completely pwned
[10:51:38] {ormus} it’s nothing new
[10:51:46] {baal} definitly not
[10:51:52] {ormus} not much goes on now that doesn’t date back to early 19th century
[10:52:05] {baal} at least had it’s beginnings there
[10:52:12] {ormus} and as i understand it, partisanship was as bad or worse in the early days
[10:52:36] {baal} information is just so available nowdays that it’s hard to ignore :)
[10:52:56] {ormus} what annoys me is the opposition taken to a bill or proposal seemingly just because the other party puts it forward
[10:53:06] {ormus} true
[10:53:49] {ormus} but anyway…this Bennett dude…they’re all over him for going into a hypothetical
[10:54:12] {nulenator} that guy should be raked over the coals
[10:54:17] {ormus} in the same sentences he says that it’s not something he advocates
[10:54:21] {ormus} oh, he will be
[10:54:24] {nulenator} good
[10:54:30] {nulenator} hopefully they’ll abort him
[10:54:45] {baal} yeah, he did NOT win any friends there
[10:54:55] {baal} any remark on the leake source identified?
[10:55:11] {ormus} it was a bit extreme, yeah…but it’s so typical we can’t even hold a forum on racial topics without people getting up in arms.
[10:55:25] {ormus} can’t even have a logical discussion without people yelling racism and going home
[10:55:33] {nulenator} oh bullshit
[10:55:55] {nulenator} he’s saying that black people are the cause of all crime!
[10:56:01] {ormus} what if he said the crime rate would go down if all white babies were aborted?
[10:56:13] {ormus} no, he’s saying they’re the cause of a disproportionate amount of crime
[10:56:15] {ormus} not all of it
[10:56:20] {ormus} i dunno if they are or not
[10:56:31] {ormus} but refute it with facts, not crying
[10:56:44] {nulenator} where are his facts?
[10:56:49] {ormus} exactly
[10:56:51] {ormus} call him out on THOSE
[10:57:02] {ormus} all i read people saying is “it’s so insensitive!”
[10:57:11] {ormus} freakin’ go get him, yeah
[10:57:13] {ormus} pull out stats
[10:57:45] {baal} that is definitly a valid point there
[10:58:11] {baal} i can see from an argumentitive point – that you might assume something like that
[10:58:41] {baal} granted, you really should have your ducks in a row before getting on a national radio program
[10:58:59] {nulenator} the problem was instead of saying what he should have, to the effect that poor people cause a disporportionate amount of crime, he turned it racist
[10:59:24] {nulenator} it was a pointless dig on his part
[10:59:26] {nulenator} imo
[10:59:40] {baal} dunno, might be, might not be
[10:59:45] {baal} I can’t imagine he meant to commit political suicide
[11:00:03] {baal} I’m guessing it more came out wrong
[11:00:27] {baal} but, isn’t being black an attribute, much like being poor is an attribute?
[11:01:06] {baal} interestingly enough, I’ll bet if you replaced “black” with “poor” that sentence wouldn’t have gotten near as much attention
[11:01:47] {nulenator} well, the thing is that the correlation with crime lies with poverty, not race
[11:02:21] {baal} dunno
[11:02:44] {nulenator} it appears to lie with race superficially because a disporportionate amount of blacks are poor
[11:03:57] {baal} ah, here we go
[11:04:17] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/race.htm
[11:04:21] {nulenator} before ormus yells, here are some studies:

http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.jcpr.org/wpfiles/LUDWIGediforweb2-7-2000.PDF

[11:04:29] {baal} oh, shit
[11:04:31] {baal} victim
[11:05:20] {nulenator} that’s by race of victim
[11:05:35] {baal} this is a little old
[11:05:36] {baal} but
[11:05:38] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cpracept.htm
[11:05:45] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cprace.htm
[11:06:35] {ormus} back
[11:06:41] {ormus} hode up…looking…
[11:07:16] {baal} ah, newer charts
[11:07:51] {ormus} oh geez…i’m gonna have to read that one later, nule
[11:07:58] {nulenator} yeah, a disproportionate number of blacks are in prison, but most people commiting crimes are still white if you look at prison population
[11:08:08] {nulenator} so abort whitey!
[11:08:23] {ormus} WHITE-collar crimes?
[11:08:25] {nulenator} too bad they don’t have a chart of political party by prison population
[11:08:25] {ormus} teehee
[11:08:30] {baal} although correctional population isn’t the best measure
[11:08:34] {nulenator} bet they’re mostly republican
[11:08:54] {ormus} but why is it i find the most intelligent response to his comments in chatthot?
[11:08:58] {ormus} not from politicians?
[11:09:05] {ormus} because they’re all about rhetoric
[11:09:07] {nulenator} sh*t – I sounded intelligent?
[11:09:10] {nulenator} let me correct that
[11:09:14] {ormus} the Dems see a chance to jump down the R’s throats
[11:09:21] {ormus} so they take that
[11:09:28] {ormus} well..potentially intelligent…
[11:09:32] {nulenator} f*ck that asswipe!
[11:09:41] {nulenator} he’s a hater
[11:09:51] {nulenator} i kill all haters
[11:10:25] {ormus} so really he should have said if you want to reduce the crime RATE…
[11:10:30] {ormus} kiddin!
[11:11:05] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/p03.pdf
[11:11:13] {baal} i know how much you love PDF’s
[11:11:20] {baal} get down around page 9-12
[11:12:42] {baal} they definitly do form a dissproportionate percentage of prison population
[11:12:57] {nulenator} interesting, blacks overtook whites in the past ten years
[11:13:06] {baal} (which could be used as at least a measuring stick of convicted violent crime)
[11:13:09] {nulenator} why were those lousy darkies slacking before that?!?
[11:13:22] {baal}
[11:13:37] {baal} saying “you can’t do this because of your race” is racist
[11:13:53] {baal} saying “a race is statisticlly more likely to end up in jail” isn’t
[11:14:02] {baal} at least in my mind
[11:14:22] {baal} whites are more likely to commit white collar crime I’m sure
[11:14:30] {baal} that doesn’t bother me any
[11:14:35] {ormus} right, baal
[11:14:44] {nulenator} grr, again, I have to disagree
[11:14:47] {baal} as a matter of fact, I’m sure whites have stolen WAY more money than any other race in this country
[11:14:49] {ormus} well…i am bothered by white collar crime
[11:14:53] {nulenator} if the cause is poverty, blaming race is racist
[11:15:00] {baal} i’m not blaming race
[11:15:01] {ormus} no, not blaming race
[11:15:11] {ormus} it just so happens that there’s a correlation with race, that’s all
[11:15:14] {nulenator} but that’s what he did
[11:15:15] {ormus} not BECAUSE of their race
[11:15:17] {baal} simply pointing out there is a corralation isn’t blaming
[11:15:24] {ormus} i don’t think he necessarily did
[11:15:29] {ormus} then again…i’m not sure he had a clue what he was doing
[11:15:35] {baal} exactly
[11:15:43] {baal} hence my “it came out wrong” statement
[11:15:52] {baal} I can’t believe he meant to say it that way
[11:16:09] {ormus} but don’t you ever feel like people have to tip-toe so delicately around racial situations that meaningful dialogue is hardly ever achieved?
[11:16:17] {baal} yes
[11:16:19] {nulenator} no
[11:16:27] {nulenator} I don’t think it’s that hard to say what you mean
[11:16:47] {baal} i can say white people this and white people that all day long
[11:16:51] {ormus} oh, sure it is…one little slip and they will be on you
[11:16:54] {baal} if I say black people ANYTHING people go nuts
[11:17:00] {ormus} not because of what you MEANT, but because of what you SAID
[11:17:42] {baal} we’ve got a guy here who works in ops
[11:17:58] {baal} who has threatened to sue the company on the basis of racism MULTIPLE times
[11:18:09] {baal} and still has a job here
[11:18:17] {baal} see how long I’m here if I threaten to sue the company
[11:18:31] {ormus} the answer it to acknowledge diversity, not to pretend it doesn’t exist. it’s as if by acknowledging a culture/race/nation’s idiosyncracies you’re being hateful.
[11:18:36] {baal} you can’t SAY the word black around him without a call from HR
[11:18:51] {ormus} granted, getting a little off the whole black/crime thing here…
[11:19:03] {ormus} yeah
[11:19:22] {baal} and there are lots of people that it doesn’t bother a damn bit
[11:19:40] {baal} our cashier lady is super friendly – calls me whitey all the time
[11:19:49] {baal} but I’d never call her blackie or something – i’d get nailed in a heartbeat
[11:19:54] {ormus} right
[11:20:16] {ormus} that kind of inconsistency bugs me…and tells me we’re not really that close
[11:20:20] {ormus} to “equality” or whatnot
[11:20:26] {nulenator} damn, I’m filling up my jdbc pool…
[11:20:30] {ormus} in short, people need to relax
[11:20:37] {baal} it’s like BY our environment being so uppity about such things, we’re unconsciously assigning a negative connotation to even BEING black
[11:20:46] {ormus} yes
[11:20:56] {ormus} as if be even identifying someone as such is racist
[11:20:59] {baal} like “how dare you call me black!”
[11:21:12] {baal} did I say that was a bad thing?
[11:21:23] {baal} did I insinuate that you are bad for being black?
[11:21:24] {baal} no!
[11:21:36] {ormus} so we are supposed to ignore any physical differences (i.e. diversity)…the same diversity that we’re told to celebrate
[11:21:38] {ormus} i don’t get it
[11:21:42] {baal} yeah
[11:21:56] {baal} I think if we acknolwedged our differences and got on with it we’d be much better off
[11:22:15] {baal} but people generally don’t like things to be different
[11:22:27] {ormus} truly
[11:22:31] {ormus} especially R’s
[11:22:32] {baal} they are creatures of habit, they want to see people that look, act, and talk just like they do
[11:22:33] {ormus} (sorry)
[11:22:57] {baal} I don’t think it’s the R’s per se – I think they’re just playing the idiots that can’t handle that we’re diverse
[11:23:16] {baal} IE: born agains, the “moral” majority
[11:23:16] {baal} etc.
[11:23:35] {baal} people that don’t live in socially and economiclly diverse areas
[11:24:03] {baal} and the moral thing picks up some stragglers in the city that think that their inadaquacies are everyone elses fault
[11:24:13] {baal} granted the dems do that to a degree also
[11:25:16] {nulenator} interesting, you do have to .close() a db connection from a pool to release its resources
[11:25:23] {nulenator} didn’t think you were supposed to do that.
[11:28:57] {nulenator} baal – do you know if that’s right?
[11:29:39] {nulenator} yeah, it apparently is…
[11:29:42] {nulenator} interesting
[11:29:59] {nulenator} good thing I found out about that now…

[09:56:12] {ormus} is that looting or surviving going on in the background?
[09:56:28] {nule} you mean looting or finding
[09:56:51] {ormus} yeah, that’s it
[09:57:49] * ormus goes off to find the magic work fridge of all its food
[09:58:09] {nule} one of my favorite pictures of the hurricane was the dude with the crazy hair walking through the flood waters with a tub full of heineken.
[10:06:44] {ormus} wouldn’t mind seeing that one
[10:08:37] {nule} trying to find it
[10:08:46] * ormus stands tapping his foot
[10:11:54] * baal stands on ormus’s foot
[10:12:14] {nule} it was on the bbc, but they’ve had about a hundred stories on katrina looting
[10:12:19] {nule} i’m still trying to find it
[10:12:39] * baal throws a tarp over all of his loot
[10:17:47] {nule} http://downtownlad.blogspot.com/2005/08/looting.html
[10:17:49] {nule} found it
[10:19:15] * ormus yawns
[10:19:17] {ormus} kind of lost interest…
[10:19:52] {ormus} k…but that’s looting, right?
[10:20:00] {nule} yeah, he’s black
[10:20:03] {ormus} right
[10:20:16] {ormus} i like how he got one more in his back pocket
[10:20:24] {nule} that’s key
[10:20:30] {ormus} yeah it is
[10:20:35] {ormus} that’s the sign of a pro
[10:20:40] {ormus} pro finder, that is
[10:20:44] {ormus} errr…i mean…looter

[15:40:57] {nule} bush wants equal time for “intelligent design”
[15:41:07] {ormus} yeah, i saw that
[15:41:12] {nule} yay
[15:41:14] {nule} go us
[15:41:45] {ormus} i dunno how i feel about that
[15:42:15] {nule} he has to be bowing to somebody’s demands to push that little button
[15:42:17] {ormus} i have no problem with intelligent design discussions going on in classrooms
[15:43:02] {nule} depends on what you mean by discussions
[15:43:07] {ormus} yeah
[15:43:13] {ormus} that’s why i dunno how i feel about that
[15:44:03] {nule} it’s a waste of time to cover a theory that hasn’t been tested or appeared in any peer review journals.
[15:44:22] {ormus} ah, i see what you mean
[15:44:30] {ormus} but i don’t think it’s a waste of time
[15:44:54] {ormus} i wouldn’t think it a waste of time if one student in class threw out a theory all his/her own
[15:45:26] {nule} answering student questions is not a waste of time, of course
[15:45:43] {nule} but scheduling time specifically to cover psuedo-science is
[15:45:47] {nule} imo
[15:45:50] {ormus} ah
[15:46:04] {ormus} i think i agree
[15:46:09] {nule} “and next week, students, we’ll cover ESP and telekinesis”
[15:46:20] {ormus} i just would want to entertain anything students wanted to talk about, i guess
[15:46:29] {ormus} throw out some alternative theories
[15:46:36] {ormus} if one happens to involve a supreme being, so be it
[15:46:42] {ormus} doesn’t mean it’s religious, imo
[15:47:04] {nule} I don’t have a problem covering religion or religious ideas in school
[15:47:25] {nule} as long as it’s done equitably
[15:47:25] {ormus} well…as far as advancing that ideology, is what i meant
[15:47:34] {ormus} or what i was thinking, anyway
[15:47:40] {nule} I get you.
[15:48:16] {ormus} at any rate, i see some people so blindedly bone-headed, i’d hate to be the same way in favor of evolution
[15:49:04] {ormus} but i’m not sure how one would go about “covering” intelligent design
[15:49:25] {ormus} from a science standpoint, seems like it’d be “oh, and by the way…”
[15:54:56] * nule … must … escape … !
[16:00:32] {baal} religion doesn’t belong in a science classroom
[16:00:43] {baal} if you want to cover intelligent design do it in a theology class
[16:01:19] {ormus} i don’t see how intelligent design necessarily means religion
[16:01:25] {baal} I think our public schools could really benefit from a mandatory “intro to theology” class that covers all of the major religions (including atheism)
[16:01:55] {baal} intelligent design is not science
[16:02:16] {ormus} not exactly, i suppose
[16:02:25] {baal} it definitly involves science
[16:02:40] {baal} and yes, it’s a grey area
[16:03:00] {baal} and you could probobly argue that theoretical physics falls in the same category
[16:03:12] {baal} but we’re not talking about graduate level college work here
[16:03:16] {ormus} but saying something was intelligently designed doesn’t mean religion to me
[16:03:17] {baal} we’re talking about high school
[16:03:28] {baal} stick to what we know – cover theology in a theology class
[16:04:05] {ormus} i don’t think putting the blinders on is exactly in the spirit of science, either
[16:04:31] {baal} certainly isn’t
[16:04:42] {ormus} again, i don’t see how intelligent design must be theology
[16:04:50] {baal} but high school biology isn’t exactly for developing new theories on life
[16:05:41] {ormus} no, but mentioning other possibilities doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me
[16:05:51] {ormus} other explanations
[16:06:16] {baal} do you study other theories of geometry in math class?
[16:06:40] {baal} (i’m still speaking in high school terms here)
[16:06:59] {ormus} theories of geometry?
[16:07:09] {ormus} seems to me they’re mainly axioms at that point
[16:07:37] {ormus} so no
[16:07:55] {baal} newtonian versus euclidian
[16:09:12] {ormus} ah
[16:09:14] {ormus} hmmm
[16:09:15] {baal} anyhow
[16:09:16] {ormus} dunno
[16:09:19] {ormus} i don’t think we did
[16:09:41] {baal} my point is that intelligent design doesn’t have a place in our high school classrooms
[16:09:46] {baal} biology classrooms
[16:09:47] {baal} sorry
[16:09:58] {baal} that debate belongs on a much higher level
[16:10:20] {baal} that argument is just another way that the friggin right-wingers are trying to get god in the classroom
[16:10:23] {baal} and it really pisses me off
[16:10:45] {ormus} what annoys me is that one side is typically so defensive of anyone talking about the other
[16:10:56] {baal} i don’t care if someone brings it up
[16:11:15] {baal} students have questions
[16:11:18] {baal} that’s normal
[16:11:41] {ormus} i guess i have this idea of evolution being taught with a “alternative views” forum or something during class
[16:11:54] {baal} waste of time
[16:12:18] {ormus} thinking outside what you’re taught is not waste of time, imo
[16:12:19] {baal} we can’t get our friggin students to know what they’re supposed to NOW without bringing in more
[16:12:57] {baal} spending time talking about id isn’t teaching someone to think outside the box…
[16:13:00] {baal} you can’t “teach” that
[16:13:11] {ormus} you can foster it, though
[16:13:14] {ormus} and that’s what i’m talking about
[16:13:17] {baal} by fostering questions
[16:13:25] {baal} not by forcing somethign down their throats
[16:13:25] {ormus} right
[16:13:39] {ormus} well…i’m not sure what there is to force…
[16:13:44] {baal} sure there is
[16:13:51] {ormus} as i mentioned earlier, seems like id amounts to an “oh, by the way…some people think…”
[16:13:57] {baal} “now class we have to cover intelligent design”
[16:14:09] {baal} some people think the fscking world is flat!
[16:14:16] {baal} and we don’t learn that in geography!
[16:14:42] {ormus} we can’t reasonably say that’s not true?
[16:15:04] {baal} we can’t reasonably say that id is true either.
[16:15:25] {ormus} we know a lot more about the earth not being flat
[16:15:40] {baal} you get my point though..
[16:15:45] {ormus} i’d take issue with anyone who purports to “know” how life came to be
[16:15:50] {baal} (yes, that was an extreme example)
[16:15:52] {ormus} evolution makes sense to me
[16:16:02] {ormus} but i’m not gonna say i know it to be the case
[16:16:08] {baal} noone is trying to say id is false, just that there is zero proof it’s true
[16:16:18] {baal} hence, religion
[16:16:22] {baal} faith
[16:16:36] {ormus} i don’t see that requisite connection
[16:16:47] {ormus} life is just hand-formed, that’s all
[16:16:51] {ormus} maybe not even by a god
[16:16:57] {baal} doesn’t matter
[16:16:58] {ormus} maybe just a higher life form
[16:17:01] {baal} buddhists dont’ believe in a god
[16:17:06] {baal} and they’re religous
[16:17:24] {baal} theology doesn’t necessarily need to be “higher power” based either
[16:17:52] {baal} there is no proof that we’re anything more than a spot of luck on a rock
[16:18:02] {ormus} right
[16:18:03] {baal} anyone that says otherwise is deluded
[16:18:30] {ormus} i just don’t understand the fight to keep the very mention of id out of the class
[16:18:40] {baal} from the teachers? – I do
[16:18:50] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:19:01] {ormus} makes it sound like science is scared of the notion to me
[16:19:31] {baal} science likes to keep guessing out of elementry biology
[16:19:45] {ormus} errr
[16:19:49] {baal} science isn’t about guesswork at that level
[16:19:51] {ormus} and eovlution doesn’t involve guessing?
[16:20:19] {ormus} i guess there’s a distinction to teaching id and bringing it up
[16:20:26] {ormus} *between, rather
[16:20:45] {baal} so, what’s to prevent the teacher from going further with it?
[16:20:48] {ormus} honestly, if i were a teacher…i’d be interested to hear kids bat it around
[16:20:53] {ormus} then i’d get fired
[16:20:58] {ormus} and that’s just not right, imo
[16:21:10] {baal} it’s a public school
[16:21:18] {baal} you have to cater to the least common denominator
[16:21:37] {baal} and there is really no possible benefit to bringing that up
[16:21:39] {ormus} what do you mean?
[16:21:53] {ormus} no possible benefit?
[16:21:54] {baal} by teaching facts, you’re not going to offend anyone
[16:21:58] {ormus} it would make them THINK, man
[16:22:11] {baal} there are a thousand other ways to do that that won’t piss people off
[16:22:32] {baal} our schools _suck_
[16:22:52] {ormus} don’t get me going on that one…it’s struck me that we’re way too conceren about “upsetting” our kids
[16:22:57] {ormus} like the whole nor more red pens thing
[16:22:58] {baal} there are a myriad of other things that our wonderful legislators can do to help them out
[16:23:04] {ormus} or not more F’s
[16:23:12] {baal} that’s entirely different
[16:23:12] {ormus} just DS
[16:23:19] {baal} I’m not talking about upsetting kids
[16:23:19] {ormus} “deferred success”
[16:23:25] {ormus} oh
[16:23:30] {baal} I’m wholly into giving more fs
[16:23:34] {ormus} so are you talking parents, then?
[16:23:36] {baal} flunk the idiots
[16:23:38] {baal} yes
[16:23:55] {ormus} well man, either way parents are gonna be pissed, sounds like
[16:24:00] {ormus} depending on where you are
[16:24:06] {baal} it’s fine to piss someone off for a reason
[16:24:12] {baal} if a child does sh*tty, they get an F
[16:24:13] {ormus} i.e. K.C. vs. Atlanta,vs. Cali
[16:24:25] {baal} I don’t care if little johnny has 3 football games a week and you both have to work
[16:24:33] {baal} BUT
[16:24:43] {ormus} well, mention id and people are gonna be pissed
[16:24:52] {baal} yes, they are
[16:24:53] {ormus} don’t mention id, and people are gonna be pissed
[16:25:02] {baal} least common denominator
[16:25:11] {ormus} ummm
[16:25:11] {baal} without mentioning ID, are the kids going to be less well off
[16:25:14] {ormus} people being poissed?
[16:25:26] {baal} do you feel like you’ve been slighted because you didn’t hear about ID when you were a kid?
[16:25:45] {baal} no no, stick to the facts
[16:25:51] {baal} (the denominator thing)
[16:25:54] {ormus} i don’t feel slighted that i didn’t grow up learning thaere was water on mars, either
[16:26:06] {ormus} and that was an actual FACT i missed out on
[16:26:12] {baal} heh
[16:26:14] {ormus} so no, i don’t feel slighted
[16:26:19] {baal} exactly
[16:26:27] {baal} so you didn’t lose out on anything
[16:26:41] {ormus} i’d hate to think it was because i was being shielded from something, though
[16:26:44] {baal} I guess it comes down to whether ID religion or not
[16:26:48] {ormus} that i was being spoonfed
[16:26:57] {baal} you’re being spoonfed in school man
[16:26:58] {baal} like it or not
[16:27:10] {ormus} it’s all a matter of degree
[16:27:18] {ormus} and yes, THAT makes me feel slighted
[16:27:21] {baal} you have to grow up before you can go out on your own
[16:27:29] {baal} (academiclly)
[16:27:59] {baal} even in college, you’re being spoonfed for your first 2 years
[16:28:13] {nule} .
[16:28:14] {baal} really those last 2 (and any graduate school) you’re doing some thinking on your own
[16:28:27] {ormus} and yes, i believe religion must involve a higher power
[16:28:38] {nule} I’m a higher power
[16:28:40] {ormus} but i don’t think id is necessarily religion
[16:28:52] {baal} theology, not religion, my bad
[16:28:53] {ormus} unless it is a religious thing, by definition
[16:29:05] {ormus} nule had to clarify something like that once for me
[16:29:16] * nule looks around
[16:29:18] {nule} hrm?
[16:29:51] {nule} I see I missed a good conversation
[16:29:51] {ormus} i think it was something about id being more immediate than just that a higher power created the big bang
[16:30:05] {ormus} that things around us were actually “hand formed”
[16:30:07] {baal} heh
[16:30:10] {baal} either way
[16:30:12] {baal} same thing
[16:30:41] {baal} keep it the hell out of public school science classrooms
[16:30:46] {nule} the big bang was created by a pair of intergalactic breasts colliding
[16:30:56] {nule} it was beautiful to behold
[16:30:57] {baal} I’d be just as against bringing theology into a math classroom
[16:31:03] {ormus} id isn’t necessarily theology, either
[16:31:04] {baal} although I’m sure GW will figure out a way to do that
[16:31:14] {ormus} in the same way it’s not necessarily religion
[16:31:25] {baal} we’ll call it intelligent multiplication
[16:31:54] {baal} hey, we can’t define what it _is_ – lets teach it in science class!
[16:32:07] {nule} that was kind of my point before
[16:32:21] {ormus} what what is?
[16:32:29] {baal} and my point that it belongs in theology – or maybe philosophy
[16:32:37] {baal} or some combination of the 2
[16:32:50] {baal} ID
[16:32:51] {nule} there’s not really a verifyable theory behind ID
[16:33:01] {baal} there’s not really ANY theory behind ID
[16:33:15] {nule} a theory has to be testable
[16:33:26] {nule} there for ID isn’t really science
[16:33:28] {baal} but nicely enough with no defining theory, we can’t prove it wrong
[16:33:30] {nule} therefore, rather
[16:33:40] {nule} which makes it religion
[16:33:49] {nule} since it’s about belief
[16:33:54] {baal} ding ding ding
[16:33:55] {ormus} i disagree there
[16:34:07] {ormus} i could talk all i want about id and not believe it
[16:34:21] {baal} do you think ALL high school kids can do that?
[16:34:31] {baal} do you not think children are impressionable?
[16:34:44] {nule} we can talk about religions we don’t believe in…
[16:34:50] {ormus} man, i hate to bar topics of discussion from a classroom
[16:34:52] {nule} they’re still religions, though
[16:34:59] {baal} you’re not barring it
[16:35:05] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:35:09] {nule} yeah, you’re just saying it’s not real science
[16:35:24] {baal} but for an organized discussion, it belongs in a theology / philosophy class
[16:35:29] * nule smashes a creationist and places them under a microscope
[16:36:01] {baal} but the problem that the creationist / religious folk have with that is that their theory is lumped in with others
[16:36:04] {baal} and they don’t like that
[16:36:15] {baal} it needs to be taught in a SCIENCE classroom!
[16:36:42] {nule} right – they’re seeking legitimacy through means other than science uses to make things legitimate
[16:37:02] {baal} truth by association
[16:37:17] {baal} essentially
[16:37:24] {baal} or plausibility by association
[16:37:28] {baal} would be more correct
[16:37:36] {baal} I think
[16:38:12] {baal} either way, to be honest with you, I’d wager 90% of the people FOR ID are not like you, ormus
[16:38:32] {baal} it’s just a way to try to reverse the scopes trial
[16:38:41] {baal} now that the right-wing has majority control
[16:39:03] {baal} anyhow, I need pop
[16:39:04] {baal} brb
[16:39:23] {nule} I’m headed hom
[16:39:24] {nule} e
[16:39:41] {nule} bbiab
[16:39:46] {ormus} but remember, if ID can’t be brought-up by the teacher, doesn’t that mean it can’t be brought up in order to point out it’s not really science?
[16:39:47] {ormus} :)
[16:48:50] {baal} oooh ormus
[16:49:06] {ormus} .
[16:49:12] {baal} i’d think it’d be appropriate for a teacher to bring up that it’s not science if a student asks about it
[16:49:15] {baal} bwa ha
[16:49:22] {ormus} ah
[16:49:34] {ormus} fair enough
[16:50:15] {baal} now I think if we forbade teachers from allowing questions about it, we’d be doing students a disservice
[16:50:27] {baal} know what I mean?
[16:50:47] {baal} I just don’t want isabellas science teacher trying to teach her religion
[16:51:38] {baal} and if her and morgan/gary^3 come home from biology class talking about how ID makes more sense than evolution, the katana will come out
[16:52:20] {ormus} i hope it’s a boy
[16:52:28] {baal} G-3?
[16:52:31] {baal}
[16:52:47] {baal} doesn’t matter to me at this point, I’m already soaked in estrogen
[16:53:13] {ormus} the name morgan doesn’t do much for me
[16:53:25] {baal} well, it’s short for Morganna
[16:53:30] {ormus} true
[16:53:35] {baal} and I like that name
[16:53:42] {ormus} just seems like a masculine name
[16:53:48] {ormus} oh wait
[16:53:57] {ormus} i guess it’s that, too
[16:54:24] {baal} if it’s a girl, it has to be some sort of evil name
[16:54:28] {baal} because isabella is really good
[16:54:35] {baal} so I figure her sister will be pure evil
[16:54:36] {ormus} true

[13:32:03] {ormus} HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) — High school students heard about “intelligent design” for the first time Tuesday in the Pennsylvania school district that attracted national attention by requiring students to be made aware of it as an alternative to the theory of evolution.
[13:32:52] {nule} way to be a trendsetter there, harrisburg
[13:33:19] {nule} talk about the least scientific “theory” imaginable.
[13:33:28] {nule} it’s complex, therefore god did it.
[13:33:31] {ormus} heh
[13:33:39] {nule} science is hard, let’s go shopping
[13:33:55] {ormus} some stuff i’ve read lately…some scientists entertain the idea of intelligent design
[13:34:21] {nule} some scientists are total fruitcakes
[13:34:23] {ormus} though i’m not sure they specify by WHOM
[13:34:35] {ormus} i suppose…but this seemed more a trend than a few stand-outs
[13:34:40] {ormus} trying to remember where i read that…
[13:34:42] {ormus} prolly cnn
[13:35:16] {ormus} it went on to talk about the idea that universes split off from the big bang billions of times a second as it continued
[13:35:36] {ormus} and that there’s 100 billion billion times the number of universes as there is atoms in our universe
[13:35:50] {nule} that’s more believable than intelligent design
[13:36:05] {ormus} yeah, it’s an answer to it
[13:36:37] {ormus} though i don’t see why our universe couldn’t be intelligently designed…by another species, even
[13:36:43] {ormus} the “ant farm” principle
[13:37:30] {nule} if by ‘design’ you mean ‘totally random chemical processes that evolve into life’ then I agree.
[13:37:32] {ormus} so, in h’burg the teachers read the statement but then entertain no questions on the subject
[13:37:43] {nule} nice
[13:37:49] {ormus} that seems backwards
[13:38:08] {nule} there’s no evidence for that ‘theory’ so how do you discuss it?
[13:38:21] {nule} I’d like to see the experiment designed to produce some evidence for it.
[13:38:29] {ormus} so the chemical processes are random…but because things are random wouldn’t necessarily mean they weren’t intelligently set into motion, right?
[13:38:48] {nule} on the other hand you can demonstrate evolutionary forces in the lab
[13:39:01] {ormus} yeah
[13:39:06] {nule} well sure – there has to be a cause somewhere.
[13:39:21] {ormus} i’m not sure why they’d necessarily be mutually exclusive
[13:39:37] {ormus} i.e. someone designed evolution into it
[13:39:57] {nule} again, if you mean random chemical changes as the design, then I agree
[13:40:24] {ormus} i don’t imagine something dictating every last chemical interaction, no
[13:40:44] {ormus} as in continuously intelligently designed
[13:40:45] {nule} and if the entire universe was created as an experiment just to make us, don’t you think we’d be a little cooler than we are?
[13:40:50] {nule} I mean, what a freaking let down.
[13:40:56] {ormus} lol
[13:41:02] {ormus} well…maybe we’re in alpha…
[13:41:33] {nule} are you proposing that some change was enacted on the system after it was created somehow?
[13:41:46] {ormus} errr…no
[13:41:51] {ormus} i’m trying to figure out where you saw that
[13:42:04] {nule} then what do you mean by “continuously designed”?
[13:42:16] {ormus} i meant NOT continously designed
[13:42:24] {ormus} i do NOT imagine that’s the case
[13:43:32] {nule} but we do agree that whatever set things in motion, whether you want to call it god or physics or whatever hasn’t intervened in the general state of things since?
[13:43:36] {ormus} it just seems to me that complete origins of the universe is unanswerable
[13:43:47] {nule} that’s a fair enough postulate
[13:43:48] {ormus} yes, i’m partial to that idea
[13:44:17] {ormus} so no matter how far back we do manage to figure things out…there’s still going to be something unknown preceding it
[13:44:40] {ormus} and that thing will be what we’d really want to know
[13:44:53] {nule} I’d say so – even if we get back to the first moment of the universe, there has to be some other context where the universe was caused.
[13:44:56] {ormus} everything in between is just details, in relation
[13:45:00] {ormus} right
[13:45:51] {nule} I think the answer is likely to be more elegant than we can guess at, at the moment.
[13:46:09] {nule} something like new universes are created in the physics inside a black-hole as the black-hole forms.
[13:46:32] {nule} but it couldn’t recurse forever then.
[13:49:03] {ormus} oh yeah, i don’t assume we’re close to “figuring things out”
[13:49:55] {ormus} i just don’t see why evolution and intelligent design can’t co-exist
[13:50:03] {ormus} brb
[13:52:06] {ormus} .
[13:53:05] {nule} maybe I don’t get intelligent design, but the scale we’re talking about design in is way lower level than evolution.
[13:53:24] {ormus} ahh
[13:53:28] {nule} I think when most people talk intelligent design then mean as a direct, one-for-one replacement of what we call evolution.
[13:53:46] {ormus} for example…i would pose to you: where did blackholes come from?
[13:53:57] {ormus} i know, i know…singularities…
[13:54:04] {ormus} but where did singularities come from?
[13:54:12] {ormus} and then i’d just keep asking until you couldn’t answer
[13:54:17] {ormus} (if that’s possible)
[13:54:56] {nule} whenever there’s sufficient mass in small enough space, the space collapses – it bends in ways that are outside of our common experience.
[13:55:10] {ormus} right
[13:55:16] {ormus} but where did the mass come from?
[13:56:08] {nule} well, if you’re a big bang kind of person, you’d say that sufficient energy was released during the big bang to form all the matter we have today as well as any potential and kinetic energy
[13:56:14] {ormus} exactly
[13:56:22] {ormus} i am a big bang kind of person, actually
[13:56:27] {ormus} but where did the energy come from?
[13:56:28] {nule} me too
[13:56:47] {nule} I don’t think anybody would try to seriously posit an answer to that question
[13:56:58] {ormus} because we’ll never know, i guess
[13:57:02] {nule} that’s not to say there aren’t theories out there.
[13:57:11] {nule} I don’t know if I’d classify that as unknowable, though
[13:57:33] {ormus} for all intents and purposes, though, the answers will approach unknowable as you go back
[13:57:45] {nule} as we learn more and more about smaller scale objects and extremely large objects we get closer to an answer
[13:57:50] {ormus} true
[13:58:03] {ormus} it’s just weird to think there was a beginning
[13:58:06] {ormus} what was before that?
[13:58:07] {ormus} nothign?
[13:58:10] {ormus} how can that be?
[13:58:13] {ormus} how can something come from nothing?
[13:58:21] {nule} define nothing. :)
[13:58:37] {ormus} actually, isn’t that the only perfect use of the word “nothing”
[13:58:38] {ormus} ?
[13:59:01] * nule looks between GWB’s ears
[13:59:09] {ormus} heh
[13:59:56] {ormus} it just seems like however much we’ll figure out, you can go one more step backward and say “but how did…?”
[14:00:37] {nule} for me the most interesting thing is that all things in the universe move at constant velocity in four dimensions, so as you go back in time space compresses infinitely, so what happens to time?
[14:00:46] {ormus} so it has occurred to me that the solution to the unanswerable might just be the unproveable
[14:01:16] {ormus} and unproveable leads me to intelligent design, i think
[14:01:17] {nule} I don’t think we know enough to call anything unprovable.
[14:01:37] {nule} I think you need a different word for what you are calling intelligent design.
[14:01:45] {ormus} sweet…
[14:01:49] * ormus sets out to make his own word…
[14:02:14] {ormus} what happens to time as you go back, you mean?
[14:02:18] {ormus} or what happens once you GET back?
[14:02:30] {ormus} allegedly, there was no time before the bang
[14:03:16] {nule} well, there appears to be an asymptote there.
[14:03:16] {ormus} so, does the conventional idea of “intelligent design” fly in the face of the big bang?
[14:03:25] {ormus} and evolutional events since?
[14:03:48] {nule} I think the common idea of ID doesn’t address the big bang.
[14:04:09] {ormus} ah
[14:04:54] {ormus} i’d be interested to do a tally on which of history’s great minds were/weren’t religious
[14:05:08] {ormus} einstein was a christian, no?
[14:06:11] {nule} http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/nhmag.html
[14:06:41] {nule} I’m not aware of which scientists were religious
[14:06:59] {nule} there is a prominent geoscientist today that believes the world was made 6000 years ago.
[14:07:19] {nule} He’s developing very advanced computer models in an attempt to prove it.
[14:07:38] {nule} His models are so good that other scientists are using them
[14:08:16] {nule} they seem to indicate the age of the world at it’s best estimate guess of how many ever billion years
[14:08:39] {nule} he refuses to believe it, though – he continues to attempt to refine his models.
[14:16:50] {ormus} back
[14:16:51] {ormus} sorry
[14:16:57] {ormus} heh
[14:16:59] {ormus} that’s funny
[14:19:38] {ormus} heh…first few sentences of that article…
[14:19:43] {ormus} i love how people always compare US to God
[14:19:53] {ormus} i.e humans
[14:20:59] {nule} well…
[14:21:04] {nule} some of us are
[14:21:14] * nule unleashes a thunderbolt
[14:22:00] {ormus} well..yeah…but the articles i read aren’t by you
[14:25:57] {nule} I specifically caused those people to be created to write those articles.
[14:26:05] {ormus} oh
[14:26:18] {ormus} did they evolve since then, though?
[14:26:39] {nule} Yeah, I didn’t take that into account.
[14:27:02] * nule curses evolution