[15:26:51] {ormus} nule: where do turkeys come from?
[15:36:21] {nule} they’re made in china

[09:17:33] * ormus walks into chatthot, adds some wood to what’s left of the previous night’s fire
[09:18:02] * ormus grabs a guitar and begins an acoustic rendition of “give peace a chance”
[10:11:48] * baal stabs ormus

[20:44:09] {ormus} okay….nule….walken vs. GW….who do you vote for?
[20:44:14] {baal} a valid question
[20:44:23] {nule} walken
[20:44:29] {ormus} lol
[20:44:34] {ormus} zero hesitation on nule’s part
[20:44:38] {nule} GW vs. just about anybody…
[20:44:42] {nule} just about anybody
[20:44:44] {baal} me!
[20:44:50] {baal} baal for president
[20:44:52] {ormus} hmm…that’s a good point, baal
[20:44:59] {baal} screw rocking the vote
[20:45:02] {baal} I will rock your FACE!

[13:27:37] {nule} .
[14:17:55] {maximus} .
[14:18:18] {maximus} ok, so i’m playing hooky today
[14:18:25] {maximus} and i *think* ormus is as well
[14:18:44] {maximus} since he was out late drinking last night
[14:18:56] {maximus} I also recall him leaving his speakers turned up in his bedroom
[14:19:02] {maximus} and see him logged into skype….
[14:19:23] {maximus} The question is, how much of a bastard *should* i be?
[14:19:39] {maximus} I’ll wait for the thot consesus on this one, majority rules
[14:28:24] {maximus} my f’ing buy.com order is STILL PROCESSING
[14:28:28] * maximus stabs buy.com repeatedly
[14:48:09] {baal} fire
[15:09:28] {maximus} nule?
[15:47:02] {nule} maximu?
[15:51:27] {maximus} drat, was waiting on a majority
[15:51:38] {maximus} or is it quarrum? i can never remember
[15:51:48] {maximus} too late now, i already left
[15:52:15] * maximus stabs buy.com’s carcus one more time just for good measure
[15:52:27] {nule} quorum
[15:52:41] {nule} but who’s counting
[15:59:08] * maximus hops in a predator and heads off to buy.com,s headquarters
[16:00:04] {maximus} the only thing keeping me from cancelling the order is finding a better deal elsewhere
[16:00:19] {nule} you’re so principled, maximus
[17:27:52] * nule wonders if baal is around…
[17:55:27] {nule} do you know anything about asymmetric key encryption, maximus?
[17:57:34] * maximus pulls out all his keys and realizes they are symmetrical
[17:57:35] {maximus} nope
[17:57:37] {maximus} sorry
[17:57:52] {nule} damn
[17:57:55] {nule} hopefully baal does
[18:00:25] {maximus} so, i’m still playing hooky, and I don’t know where jeff is…
[18:00:26] {maximus} that’s it
[18:00:32] {maximus} one way to find out
[18:00:37] {maximus} (without entering his room)
[18:00:52] {nule} you’re just dying to skype him, aren’t you?
[18:00:55] {maximus} i am…
[18:00:56] {nule} I can’t condone it, maximus
[18:01:02] {maximus} hrm, maybe he isn’t there….
[18:01:18] {maximus} wow, if that didn’t wake him, maybe he really is at work
[18:01:34] {maximus} his speakers are set to stun
[18:02:10] {nule} why are you playing hooky today, maximus?
[18:02:19] {nule} I might take off friday and head for PA
[18:02:33] {nule} another reason I need the baalio to be around
[18:05:41] {maximus} he IS HERE!!!!
[18:05:49] {nule} nice
[13:07:15] *** [AIM] Connecting to TOC2.
[13:07:33] *** Connecting to IRC on port 12357 of server thot.us.
[13:07:33] *** You are now connected.
[13:07:34] *** Topic for #thot: layin’ back in an old saloon with a peso in my hand.
[13:07:34] *** You are now participating in the #thot discussion. Checking for current participants…
[13:07:34] *** Users on #thot: @nule maximus @baal ormus
[13:08:04] {ormus} .
[13:08:13] * ormus rubs his eyes, looks around
[13:08:17] {ormus} where AM i?
[13:08:21] {maximus} bwa ha ha!
[13:18:00] {maximus} that was so freaking funny
[13:18:11] {maximus} Jeff stumbles out of his room and goes “you ARE here” to me!
[13:18:18] {maximus} i cant’ believe we both slacked today
[13:18:27] {nule} nice work
[13:18:28] {maximus} and yes, I’m playing hooky for absolutely no reason at all nule
[13:18:30] {nule} I’ll be right over

“[Y]ou could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.”
-William Bennett

[10:38:13] {ormus} did you see what this William Bennett dude said? stirred up a bit of a storm
[10:38:34] {baal}
[10:38:34] {nulenator} �
[10:38:37] [Last message repeated 3 more times]
[10:39:58] {baal} holy crap
[10:40:01] {baal} well, for good reason it seems
[10:40:54] {ormus} did you read the entirety of what he said?
[10:40:59] {baal} yeah
[10:41:06] {baal} sounds like he tried to cover himself
[10:41:10] {baal} at least a little
[10:41:30] {ormus} i would argue the comment might not be racist
[10:41:42] {baal} you could
[10:41:51] {baal} well
[10:41:51] {baal} maybe
[10:42:00] {baal} basing a generization on race
[10:42:39] {ormus} i wish people would refute comments like that with facts rather than calls of racism, etc.
[10:43:45] {nulenator} we would be better off sterilizing all republicans
[10:43:56] {ormus} that’s racist!
[10:44:05] {baal} too late for me, I’ve already spawned!
[10:44:12] {ormus} i was actually trying to come up with an equivalent like that…
[10:44:23] {baal} not that republicans today stand for anything that they used to when i actually joined the party
[10:44:33] {baal} I don’t think I’ve changed THAT much
[10:45:08] {nulenator} they pretty much always stood for looking after the interests of corporations more than people
[10:45:21] {nulenator} I was at a party the other day when a vocal republic said, ”
[10:45:40] {nulenator} my heart goes out to delta airlines – to see a company struggling like they are”
[10:45:45] {baal} heh
[10:45:48] {nulenator} it’s a f*cking company, dude!
[10:45:54] {nulenator} like it gives a sh*t about you?!
[10:45:56] {ormus} yeah, that’s pretty bad
[10:46:00] {baal} well, it’s more about balance than anything
[10:46:11] {baal} and thigns are definitly swung too far to the corporate side
[10:46:18] {nulenator} corporations were never meant to be ‘super citizens’
[10:46:25] {baal} I’m referring more to the moral stuff
[10:46:35] {nulenator} they can’t vote after all, why can they buy votes?
[10:46:46] {baal} heh
[10:46:57] {baal} well, you can thank our *entire* political system for that
[10:47:06] {nulenator} sure
[10:47:15] * nulenator nulenates the entire government
[10:48:03] {baal} heh
[10:48:13] {baal} honestly I think the dems are just as corrupt
[10:48:27] {ormus} they’re all dirty to an extent, yeah
[10:48:30] {ormus} both parties piss me off
[10:48:32] {baal} they’re just using the outrageous behavior of the republicans to foster rage
[10:48:56] {ormus} R’s are so short-sighted it scares me…and in bed with big biz…the D’s have been reduced to whiners, it seems
[10:49:07] {baal} and the republicans are playing the “moral majority” and “hard workers” against the evil city-dwellers
[10:49:26] {baal} they’re both in bed with business
[10:49:34] {ormus} to an extent, sure
[10:49:39] {ormus} you need campaign money, after all
[10:49:52] {baal} I think our system is set up so when you get to the point that you’re in federal governemnt you’re completely pwned
[10:51:38] {ormus} it’s nothing new
[10:51:46] {baal} definitly not
[10:51:52] {ormus} not much goes on now that doesn’t date back to early 19th century
[10:52:05] {baal} at least had it’s beginnings there
[10:52:12] {ormus} and as i understand it, partisanship was as bad or worse in the early days
[10:52:36] {baal} information is just so available nowdays that it’s hard to ignore :)
[10:52:56] {ormus} what annoys me is the opposition taken to a bill or proposal seemingly just because the other party puts it forward
[10:53:06] {ormus} true
[10:53:49] {ormus} but anyway…this Bennett dude…they’re all over him for going into a hypothetical
[10:54:12] {nulenator} that guy should be raked over the coals
[10:54:17] {ormus} in the same sentences he says that it’s not something he advocates
[10:54:21] {ormus} oh, he will be
[10:54:24] {nulenator} good
[10:54:30] {nulenator} hopefully they’ll abort him
[10:54:45] {baal} yeah, he did NOT win any friends there
[10:54:55] {baal} any remark on the leake source identified?
[10:55:11] {ormus} it was a bit extreme, yeah…but it’s so typical we can’t even hold a forum on racial topics without people getting up in arms.
[10:55:25] {ormus} can’t even have a logical discussion without people yelling racism and going home
[10:55:33] {nulenator} oh bullshit
[10:55:55] {nulenator} he’s saying that black people are the cause of all crime!
[10:56:01] {ormus} what if he said the crime rate would go down if all white babies were aborted?
[10:56:13] {ormus} no, he’s saying they’re the cause of a disproportionate amount of crime
[10:56:15] {ormus} not all of it
[10:56:20] {ormus} i dunno if they are or not
[10:56:31] {ormus} but refute it with facts, not crying
[10:56:44] {nulenator} where are his facts?
[10:56:49] {ormus} exactly
[10:56:51] {ormus} call him out on THOSE
[10:57:02] {ormus} all i read people saying is “it’s so insensitive!”
[10:57:11] {ormus} freakin’ go get him, yeah
[10:57:13] {ormus} pull out stats
[10:57:45] {baal} that is definitly a valid point there
[10:58:11] {baal} i can see from an argumentitive point – that you might assume something like that
[10:58:41] {baal} granted, you really should have your ducks in a row before getting on a national radio program
[10:58:59] {nulenator} the problem was instead of saying what he should have, to the effect that poor people cause a disporportionate amount of crime, he turned it racist
[10:59:24] {nulenator} it was a pointless dig on his part
[10:59:26] {nulenator} imo
[10:59:40] {baal} dunno, might be, might not be
[10:59:45] {baal} I can’t imagine he meant to commit political suicide
[11:00:03] {baal} I’m guessing it more came out wrong
[11:00:27] {baal} but, isn’t being black an attribute, much like being poor is an attribute?
[11:01:06] {baal} interestingly enough, I’ll bet if you replaced “black” with “poor” that sentence wouldn’t have gotten near as much attention
[11:01:47] {nulenator} well, the thing is that the correlation with crime lies with poverty, not race
[11:02:21] {baal} dunno
[11:02:44] {nulenator} it appears to lie with race superficially because a disporportionate amount of blacks are poor
[11:03:57] {baal} ah, here we go
[11:04:17] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/race.htm
[11:04:21] {nulenator} before ormus yells, here are some studies:

http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.jcpr.org/wpfiles/LUDWIGediforweb2-7-2000.PDF

[11:04:29] {baal} oh, shit
[11:04:31] {baal} victim
[11:05:20] {nulenator} that’s by race of victim
[11:05:35] {baal} this is a little old
[11:05:36] {baal} but
[11:05:38] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cpracept.htm
[11:05:45] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cprace.htm
[11:06:35] {ormus} back
[11:06:41] {ormus} hode up…looking…
[11:07:16] {baal} ah, newer charts
[11:07:51] {ormus} oh geez…i’m gonna have to read that one later, nule
[11:07:58] {nulenator} yeah, a disproportionate number of blacks are in prison, but most people commiting crimes are still white if you look at prison population
[11:08:08] {nulenator} so abort whitey!
[11:08:23] {ormus} WHITE-collar crimes?
[11:08:25] {nulenator} too bad they don’t have a chart of political party by prison population
[11:08:25] {ormus} teehee
[11:08:30] {baal} although correctional population isn’t the best measure
[11:08:34] {nulenator} bet they’re mostly republican
[11:08:54] {ormus} but why is it i find the most intelligent response to his comments in chatthot?
[11:08:58] {ormus} not from politicians?
[11:09:05] {ormus} because they’re all about rhetoric
[11:09:07] {nulenator} sh*t – I sounded intelligent?
[11:09:10] {nulenator} let me correct that
[11:09:14] {ormus} the Dems see a chance to jump down the R’s throats
[11:09:21] {ormus} so they take that
[11:09:28] {ormus} well..potentially intelligent…
[11:09:32] {nulenator} f*ck that asswipe!
[11:09:41] {nulenator} he’s a hater
[11:09:51] {nulenator} i kill all haters
[11:10:25] {ormus} so really he should have said if you want to reduce the crime RATE…
[11:10:30] {ormus} kiddin!
[11:11:05] {baal} http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/p03.pdf
[11:11:13] {baal} i know how much you love PDF’s
[11:11:20] {baal} get down around page 9-12
[11:12:42] {baal} they definitly do form a dissproportionate percentage of prison population
[11:12:57] {nulenator} interesting, blacks overtook whites in the past ten years
[11:13:06] {baal} (which could be used as at least a measuring stick of convicted violent crime)
[11:13:09] {nulenator} why were those lousy darkies slacking before that?!?
[11:13:22] {baal}
[11:13:37] {baal} saying “you can’t do this because of your race” is racist
[11:13:53] {baal} saying “a race is statisticlly more likely to end up in jail” isn’t
[11:14:02] {baal} at least in my mind
[11:14:22] {baal} whites are more likely to commit white collar crime I’m sure
[11:14:30] {baal} that doesn’t bother me any
[11:14:35] {ormus} right, baal
[11:14:44] {nulenator} grr, again, I have to disagree
[11:14:47] {baal} as a matter of fact, I’m sure whites have stolen WAY more money than any other race in this country
[11:14:49] {ormus} well…i am bothered by white collar crime
[11:14:53] {nulenator} if the cause is poverty, blaming race is racist
[11:15:00] {baal} i’m not blaming race
[11:15:01] {ormus} no, not blaming race
[11:15:11] {ormus} it just so happens that there’s a correlation with race, that’s all
[11:15:14] {nulenator} but that’s what he did
[11:15:15] {ormus} not BECAUSE of their race
[11:15:17] {baal} simply pointing out there is a corralation isn’t blaming
[11:15:24] {ormus} i don’t think he necessarily did
[11:15:29] {ormus} then again…i’m not sure he had a clue what he was doing
[11:15:35] {baal} exactly
[11:15:43] {baal} hence my “it came out wrong” statement
[11:15:52] {baal} I can’t believe he meant to say it that way
[11:16:09] {ormus} but don’t you ever feel like people have to tip-toe so delicately around racial situations that meaningful dialogue is hardly ever achieved?
[11:16:17] {baal} yes
[11:16:19] {nulenator} no
[11:16:27] {nulenator} I don’t think it’s that hard to say what you mean
[11:16:47] {baal} i can say white people this and white people that all day long
[11:16:51] {ormus} oh, sure it is…one little slip and they will be on you
[11:16:54] {baal} if I say black people ANYTHING people go nuts
[11:17:00] {ormus} not because of what you MEANT, but because of what you SAID
[11:17:42] {baal} we’ve got a guy here who works in ops
[11:17:58] {baal} who has threatened to sue the company on the basis of racism MULTIPLE times
[11:18:09] {baal} and still has a job here
[11:18:17] {baal} see how long I’m here if I threaten to sue the company
[11:18:31] {ormus} the answer it to acknowledge diversity, not to pretend it doesn’t exist. it’s as if by acknowledging a culture/race/nation’s idiosyncracies you’re being hateful.
[11:18:36] {baal} you can’t SAY the word black around him without a call from HR
[11:18:51] {ormus} granted, getting a little off the whole black/crime thing here…
[11:19:03] {ormus} yeah
[11:19:22] {baal} and there are lots of people that it doesn’t bother a damn bit
[11:19:40] {baal} our cashier lady is super friendly – calls me whitey all the time
[11:19:49] {baal} but I’d never call her blackie or something – i’d get nailed in a heartbeat
[11:19:54] {ormus} right
[11:20:16] {ormus} that kind of inconsistency bugs me…and tells me we’re not really that close
[11:20:20] {ormus} to “equality” or whatnot
[11:20:26] {nulenator} damn, I’m filling up my jdbc pool…
[11:20:30] {ormus} in short, people need to relax
[11:20:37] {baal} it’s like BY our environment being so uppity about such things, we’re unconsciously assigning a negative connotation to even BEING black
[11:20:46] {ormus} yes
[11:20:56] {ormus} as if be even identifying someone as such is racist
[11:20:59] {baal} like “how dare you call me black!”
[11:21:12] {baal} did I say that was a bad thing?
[11:21:23] {baal} did I insinuate that you are bad for being black?
[11:21:24] {baal} no!
[11:21:36] {ormus} so we are supposed to ignore any physical differences (i.e. diversity)…the same diversity that we’re told to celebrate
[11:21:38] {ormus} i don’t get it
[11:21:42] {baal} yeah
[11:21:56] {baal} I think if we acknolwedged our differences and got on with it we’d be much better off
[11:22:15] {baal} but people generally don’t like things to be different
[11:22:27] {ormus} truly
[11:22:31] {ormus} especially R’s
[11:22:32] {baal} they are creatures of habit, they want to see people that look, act, and talk just like they do
[11:22:33] {ormus} (sorry)
[11:22:57] {baal} I don’t think it’s the R’s per se – I think they’re just playing the idiots that can’t handle that we’re diverse
[11:23:16] {baal} IE: born agains, the “moral” majority
[11:23:16] {baal} etc.
[11:23:35] {baal} people that don’t live in socially and economiclly diverse areas
[11:24:03] {baal} and the moral thing picks up some stragglers in the city that think that their inadaquacies are everyone elses fault
[11:24:13] {baal} granted the dems do that to a degree also
[11:25:16] {nulenator} interesting, you do have to .close() a db connection from a pool to release its resources
[11:25:23] {nulenator} didn’t think you were supposed to do that.
[11:28:57] {nulenator} baal – do you know if that’s right?
[11:29:39] {nulenator} yeah, it apparently is…
[11:29:42] {nulenator} interesting
[11:29:59] {nulenator} good thing I found out about that now…

[09:29:08] *** Topic for #thot: baal is f*cking metal!.
[09:29:08] *** You {ormus} are now participating in the #thot discussion. Checking for current participants…
[09:29:08] *** Users on #thot: @nule @baal ormus
[09:29:28] {nule} anyway, that’s all I’m going to say about that.
[09:29:33] {nule} I’ll be back, probably tonight
[09:29:40] {baal} .
[09:29:46] {baal} where arey ou going nule?
[09:29:59] {baal} nule!
[09:30:04] {baal} NOOOOOOOOOOOLEEEEe!
[09:30:14] {ormus} :)
[09:30:19] * nule nudges baal, “shhhh, trying to fool ormus”
[09:30:26] {ormus} you pulled an ormus
[09:30:27] {baal} why
[09:30:28] {baal} WHY!
[09:30:34] {ormus} and baal pulled a maximus
[09:30:37] * nule pounds his head into the table
[09:30:38] {ormus} while i pulled a baal
[09:30:46] * baal thought he felt something
[09:30:56] * nule pounds maximus’ head into the table

[09:56:12] {ormus} is that looting or surviving going on in the background?
[09:56:28] {nule} you mean looting or finding
[09:56:51] {ormus} yeah, that’s it
[09:57:49] * ormus goes off to find the magic work fridge of all its food
[09:58:09] {nule} one of my favorite pictures of the hurricane was the dude with the crazy hair walking through the flood waters with a tub full of heineken.
[10:06:44] {ormus} wouldn’t mind seeing that one
[10:08:37] {nule} trying to find it
[10:08:46] * ormus stands tapping his foot
[10:11:54] * baal stands on ormus’s foot
[10:12:14] {nule} it was on the bbc, but they’ve had about a hundred stories on katrina looting
[10:12:19] {nule} i’m still trying to find it
[10:12:39] * baal throws a tarp over all of his loot
[10:17:47] {nule} http://downtownlad.blogspot.com/2005/08/looting.html
[10:17:49] {nule} found it
[10:19:15] * ormus yawns
[10:19:17] {ormus} kind of lost interest…
[10:19:52] {ormus} k…but that’s looting, right?
[10:20:00] {nule} yeah, he’s black
[10:20:03] {ormus} right
[10:20:16] {ormus} i like how he got one more in his back pocket
[10:20:24] {nule} that’s key
[10:20:30] {ormus} yeah it is
[10:20:35] {ormus} that’s the sign of a pro
[10:20:40] {ormus} pro finder, that is
[10:20:44] {ormus} errr…i mean…looter

[13:37:33] * nule tosses ormus a nulie treat
[13:39:08] * ormus eats greedily
[13:39:41] {ormus} i believe that men may be as much at fault as women when it comes to intergender communication lapses
[13:40:12] {ormus} i think perhaps our unreasonable expectations of reasonableness from women set us up for failure
[13:40:13] {baal} like when I punch them in the face for talking too much
[13:40:26] {baal} unreasonable expectations for logical thought
[13:40:35] {ormus> hmm
[13:40:42] {ormus} yeah…same kind of twist
[13:40:46] {baal} heh
[13:41:05] {baal} it’s definitly a generalization, but you do have to tailor what you say to certain people
[13:41:12] * ormus opens the chatthot fridge, pulls out two beers, whips one at baal as hard as he can
[13:41:22] * nule raises his hand
[13:41:28] * baal opens wide and catches the beer in his maw
[13:41:34] * baal crunches
[13:41:37] * ormus nods with approval
[13:41:40] {ormus} nule…question?
[13:41:50] {nule} no… I want a beer
[13:41:54] {ormus} yeah, tailoring is key, baal…be they from OH or PA…
[13:42:18] {baal} agreed

[15:40:57] {nule} bush wants equal time for “intelligent design”
[15:41:07] {ormus} yeah, i saw that
[15:41:12] {nule} yay
[15:41:14] {nule} go us
[15:41:45] {ormus} i dunno how i feel about that
[15:42:15] {nule} he has to be bowing to somebody’s demands to push that little button
[15:42:17] {ormus} i have no problem with intelligent design discussions going on in classrooms
[15:43:02] {nule} depends on what you mean by discussions
[15:43:07] {ormus} yeah
[15:43:13] {ormus} that’s why i dunno how i feel about that
[15:44:03] {nule} it’s a waste of time to cover a theory that hasn’t been tested or appeared in any peer review journals.
[15:44:22] {ormus} ah, i see what you mean
[15:44:30] {ormus} but i don’t think it’s a waste of time
[15:44:54] {ormus} i wouldn’t think it a waste of time if one student in class threw out a theory all his/her own
[15:45:26] {nule} answering student questions is not a waste of time, of course
[15:45:43] {nule} but scheduling time specifically to cover psuedo-science is
[15:45:47] {nule} imo
[15:45:50] {ormus} ah
[15:46:04] {ormus} i think i agree
[15:46:09] {nule} “and next week, students, we’ll cover ESP and telekinesis”
[15:46:20] {ormus} i just would want to entertain anything students wanted to talk about, i guess
[15:46:29] {ormus} throw out some alternative theories
[15:46:36] {ormus} if one happens to involve a supreme being, so be it
[15:46:42] {ormus} doesn’t mean it’s religious, imo
[15:47:04] {nule} I don’t have a problem covering religion or religious ideas in school
[15:47:25] {nule} as long as it’s done equitably
[15:47:25] {ormus} well…as far as advancing that ideology, is what i meant
[15:47:34] {ormus} or what i was thinking, anyway
[15:47:40] {nule} I get you.
[15:48:16] {ormus} at any rate, i see some people so blindedly bone-headed, i’d hate to be the same way in favor of evolution
[15:49:04] {ormus} but i’m not sure how one would go about “covering” intelligent design
[15:49:25] {ormus} from a science standpoint, seems like it’d be “oh, and by the way…”
[15:54:56] * nule … must … escape … !
[16:00:32] {baal} religion doesn’t belong in a science classroom
[16:00:43] {baal} if you want to cover intelligent design do it in a theology class
[16:01:19] {ormus} i don’t see how intelligent design necessarily means religion
[16:01:25] {baal} I think our public schools could really benefit from a mandatory “intro to theology” class that covers all of the major religions (including atheism)
[16:01:55] {baal} intelligent design is not science
[16:02:16] {ormus} not exactly, i suppose
[16:02:25] {baal} it definitly involves science
[16:02:40] {baal} and yes, it’s a grey area
[16:03:00] {baal} and you could probobly argue that theoretical physics falls in the same category
[16:03:12] {baal} but we’re not talking about graduate level college work here
[16:03:16] {ormus} but saying something was intelligently designed doesn’t mean religion to me
[16:03:17] {baal} we’re talking about high school
[16:03:28] {baal} stick to what we know – cover theology in a theology class
[16:04:05] {ormus} i don’t think putting the blinders on is exactly in the spirit of science, either
[16:04:31] {baal} certainly isn’t
[16:04:42] {ormus} again, i don’t see how intelligent design must be theology
[16:04:50] {baal} but high school biology isn’t exactly for developing new theories on life
[16:05:41] {ormus} no, but mentioning other possibilities doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me
[16:05:51] {ormus} other explanations
[16:06:16] {baal} do you study other theories of geometry in math class?
[16:06:40] {baal} (i’m still speaking in high school terms here)
[16:06:59] {ormus} theories of geometry?
[16:07:09] {ormus} seems to me they’re mainly axioms at that point
[16:07:37] {ormus} so no
[16:07:55] {baal} newtonian versus euclidian
[16:09:12] {ormus} ah
[16:09:14] {ormus} hmmm
[16:09:15] {baal} anyhow
[16:09:16] {ormus} dunno
[16:09:19] {ormus} i don’t think we did
[16:09:41] {baal} my point is that intelligent design doesn’t have a place in our high school classrooms
[16:09:46] {baal} biology classrooms
[16:09:47] {baal} sorry
[16:09:58] {baal} that debate belongs on a much higher level
[16:10:20] {baal} that argument is just another way that the friggin right-wingers are trying to get god in the classroom
[16:10:23] {baal} and it really pisses me off
[16:10:45] {ormus} what annoys me is that one side is typically so defensive of anyone talking about the other
[16:10:56] {baal} i don’t care if someone brings it up
[16:11:15] {baal} students have questions
[16:11:18] {baal} that’s normal
[16:11:41] {ormus} i guess i have this idea of evolution being taught with a “alternative views” forum or something during class
[16:11:54] {baal} waste of time
[16:12:18] {ormus} thinking outside what you’re taught is not waste of time, imo
[16:12:19] {baal} we can’t get our friggin students to know what they’re supposed to NOW without bringing in more
[16:12:57] {baal} spending time talking about id isn’t teaching someone to think outside the box…
[16:13:00] {baal} you can’t “teach” that
[16:13:11] {ormus} you can foster it, though
[16:13:14] {ormus} and that’s what i’m talking about
[16:13:17] {baal} by fostering questions
[16:13:25] {baal} not by forcing somethign down their throats
[16:13:25] {ormus} right
[16:13:39] {ormus} well…i’m not sure what there is to force…
[16:13:44] {baal} sure there is
[16:13:51] {ormus} as i mentioned earlier, seems like id amounts to an “oh, by the way…some people think…”
[16:13:57] {baal} “now class we have to cover intelligent design”
[16:14:09] {baal} some people think the fscking world is flat!
[16:14:16] {baal} and we don’t learn that in geography!
[16:14:42] {ormus} we can’t reasonably say that’s not true?
[16:15:04] {baal} we can’t reasonably say that id is true either.
[16:15:25] {ormus} we know a lot more about the earth not being flat
[16:15:40] {baal} you get my point though..
[16:15:45] {ormus} i’d take issue with anyone who purports to “know” how life came to be
[16:15:50] {baal} (yes, that was an extreme example)
[16:15:52] {ormus} evolution makes sense to me
[16:16:02] {ormus} but i’m not gonna say i know it to be the case
[16:16:08] {baal} noone is trying to say id is false, just that there is zero proof it’s true
[16:16:18] {baal} hence, religion
[16:16:22] {baal} faith
[16:16:36] {ormus} i don’t see that requisite connection
[16:16:47] {ormus} life is just hand-formed, that’s all
[16:16:51] {ormus} maybe not even by a god
[16:16:57] {baal} doesn’t matter
[16:16:58] {ormus} maybe just a higher life form
[16:17:01] {baal} buddhists dont’ believe in a god
[16:17:06] {baal} and they’re religous
[16:17:24] {baal} theology doesn’t necessarily need to be “higher power” based either
[16:17:52] {baal} there is no proof that we’re anything more than a spot of luck on a rock
[16:18:02] {ormus} right
[16:18:03] {baal} anyone that says otherwise is deluded
[16:18:30] {ormus} i just don’t understand the fight to keep the very mention of id out of the class
[16:18:40] {baal} from the teachers? – I do
[16:18:50] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:19:01] {ormus} makes it sound like science is scared of the notion to me
[16:19:31] {baal} science likes to keep guessing out of elementry biology
[16:19:45] {ormus} errr
[16:19:49] {baal} science isn’t about guesswork at that level
[16:19:51] {ormus} and eovlution doesn’t involve guessing?
[16:20:19] {ormus} i guess there’s a distinction to teaching id and bringing it up
[16:20:26] {ormus} *between, rather
[16:20:45] {baal} so, what’s to prevent the teacher from going further with it?
[16:20:48] {ormus} honestly, if i were a teacher…i’d be interested to hear kids bat it around
[16:20:53] {ormus} then i’d get fired
[16:20:58] {ormus} and that’s just not right, imo
[16:21:10] {baal} it’s a public school
[16:21:18] {baal} you have to cater to the least common denominator
[16:21:37] {baal} and there is really no possible benefit to bringing that up
[16:21:39] {ormus} what do you mean?
[16:21:53] {ormus} no possible benefit?
[16:21:54] {baal} by teaching facts, you’re not going to offend anyone
[16:21:58] {ormus} it would make them THINK, man
[16:22:11] {baal} there are a thousand other ways to do that that won’t piss people off
[16:22:32] {baal} our schools _suck_
[16:22:52] {ormus} don’t get me going on that one…it’s struck me that we’re way too conceren about “upsetting” our kids
[16:22:57] {ormus} like the whole nor more red pens thing
[16:22:58] {baal} there are a myriad of other things that our wonderful legislators can do to help them out
[16:23:04] {ormus} or not more F’s
[16:23:12] {baal} that’s entirely different
[16:23:12] {ormus} just DS
[16:23:19] {baal} I’m not talking about upsetting kids
[16:23:19] {ormus} “deferred success”
[16:23:25] {ormus} oh
[16:23:30] {baal} I’m wholly into giving more fs
[16:23:34] {ormus} so are you talking parents, then?
[16:23:36] {baal} flunk the idiots
[16:23:38] {baal} yes
[16:23:55] {ormus} well man, either way parents are gonna be pissed, sounds like
[16:24:00] {ormus} depending on where you are
[16:24:06] {baal} it’s fine to piss someone off for a reason
[16:24:12] {baal} if a child does sh*tty, they get an F
[16:24:13] {ormus} i.e. K.C. vs. Atlanta,vs. Cali
[16:24:25] {baal} I don’t care if little johnny has 3 football games a week and you both have to work
[16:24:33] {baal} BUT
[16:24:43] {ormus} well, mention id and people are gonna be pissed
[16:24:52] {baal} yes, they are
[16:24:53] {ormus} don’t mention id, and people are gonna be pissed
[16:25:02] {baal} least common denominator
[16:25:11] {ormus} ummm
[16:25:11] {baal} without mentioning ID, are the kids going to be less well off
[16:25:14] {ormus} people being poissed?
[16:25:26] {baal} do you feel like you’ve been slighted because you didn’t hear about ID when you were a kid?
[16:25:45] {baal} no no, stick to the facts
[16:25:51] {baal} (the denominator thing)
[16:25:54] {ormus} i don’t feel slighted that i didn’t grow up learning thaere was water on mars, either
[16:26:06] {ormus} and that was an actual FACT i missed out on
[16:26:12] {baal} heh
[16:26:14] {ormus} so no, i don’t feel slighted
[16:26:19] {baal} exactly
[16:26:27] {baal} so you didn’t lose out on anything
[16:26:41] {ormus} i’d hate to think it was because i was being shielded from something, though
[16:26:44] {baal} I guess it comes down to whether ID religion or not
[16:26:48] {ormus} that i was being spoonfed
[16:26:57] {baal} you’re being spoonfed in school man
[16:26:58] {baal} like it or not
[16:27:10] {ormus} it’s all a matter of degree
[16:27:18] {ormus} and yes, THAT makes me feel slighted
[16:27:21] {baal} you have to grow up before you can go out on your own
[16:27:29] {baal} (academiclly)
[16:27:59] {baal} even in college, you’re being spoonfed for your first 2 years
[16:28:13] {nule} .
[16:28:14] {baal} really those last 2 (and any graduate school) you’re doing some thinking on your own
[16:28:27] {ormus} and yes, i believe religion must involve a higher power
[16:28:38] {nule} I’m a higher power
[16:28:40] {ormus} but i don’t think id is necessarily religion
[16:28:52] {baal} theology, not religion, my bad
[16:28:53] {ormus} unless it is a religious thing, by definition
[16:29:05] {ormus} nule had to clarify something like that once for me
[16:29:16] * nule looks around
[16:29:18] {nule} hrm?
[16:29:51] {nule} I see I missed a good conversation
[16:29:51] {ormus} i think it was something about id being more immediate than just that a higher power created the big bang
[16:30:05] {ormus} that things around us were actually “hand formed”
[16:30:07] {baal} heh
[16:30:10] {baal} either way
[16:30:12] {baal} same thing
[16:30:41] {baal} keep it the hell out of public school science classrooms
[16:30:46] {nule} the big bang was created by a pair of intergalactic breasts colliding
[16:30:56] {nule} it was beautiful to behold
[16:30:57] {baal} I’d be just as against bringing theology into a math classroom
[16:31:03] {ormus} id isn’t necessarily theology, either
[16:31:04] {baal} although I’m sure GW will figure out a way to do that
[16:31:14] {ormus} in the same way it’s not necessarily religion
[16:31:25] {baal} we’ll call it intelligent multiplication
[16:31:54] {baal} hey, we can’t define what it _is_ – lets teach it in science class!
[16:32:07] {nule} that was kind of my point before
[16:32:21] {ormus} what what is?
[16:32:29] {baal} and my point that it belongs in theology – or maybe philosophy
[16:32:37] {baal} or some combination of the 2
[16:32:50] {baal} ID
[16:32:51] {nule} there’s not really a verifyable theory behind ID
[16:33:01] {baal} there’s not really ANY theory behind ID
[16:33:15] {nule} a theory has to be testable
[16:33:26] {nule} there for ID isn’t really science
[16:33:28] {baal} but nicely enough with no defining theory, we can’t prove it wrong
[16:33:30] {nule} therefore, rather
[16:33:40] {nule} which makes it religion
[16:33:49] {nule} since it’s about belief
[16:33:54] {baal} ding ding ding
[16:33:55] {ormus} i disagree there
[16:34:07] {ormus} i could talk all i want about id and not believe it
[16:34:21] {baal} do you think ALL high school kids can do that?
[16:34:31] {baal} do you not think children are impressionable?
[16:34:44] {nule} we can talk about religions we don’t believe in…
[16:34:50] {ormus} man, i hate to bar topics of discussion from a classroom
[16:34:52] {nule} they’re still religions, though
[16:34:59] {baal} you’re not barring it
[16:35:05] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:35:09] {nule} yeah, you’re just saying it’s not real science
[16:35:24] {baal} but for an organized discussion, it belongs in a theology / philosophy class
[16:35:29] * nule smashes a creationist and places them under a microscope
[16:36:01] {baal} but the problem that the creationist / religious folk have with that is that their theory is lumped in with others
[16:36:04] {baal} and they don’t like that
[16:36:15] {baal} it needs to be taught in a SCIENCE classroom!
[16:36:42] {nule} right – they’re seeking legitimacy through means other than science uses to make things legitimate
[16:37:02] {baal} truth by association
[16:37:17] {baal} essentially
[16:37:24] {baal} or plausibility by association
[16:37:28] {baal} would be more correct
[16:37:36] {baal} I think
[16:38:12] {baal} either way, to be honest with you, I’d wager 90% of the people FOR ID are not like you, ormus
[16:38:32] {baal} it’s just a way to try to reverse the scopes trial
[16:38:41] {baal} now that the right-wing has majority control
[16:39:03] {baal} anyhow, I need pop
[16:39:04] {baal} brb
[16:39:23] {nule} I’m headed hom
[16:39:24] {nule} e
[16:39:41] {nule} bbiab
[16:39:46] {ormus} but remember, if ID can’t be brought-up by the teacher, doesn’t that mean it can’t be brought up in order to point out it’s not really science?
[16:39:47] {ormus} :)
[16:48:50] {baal} oooh ormus
[16:49:06] {ormus} .
[16:49:12] {baal} i’d think it’d be appropriate for a teacher to bring up that it’s not science if a student asks about it
[16:49:15] {baal} bwa ha
[16:49:22] {ormus} ah
[16:49:34] {ormus} fair enough
[16:50:15] {baal} now I think if we forbade teachers from allowing questions about it, we’d be doing students a disservice
[16:50:27] {baal} know what I mean?
[16:50:47] {baal} I just don’t want isabellas science teacher trying to teach her religion
[16:51:38] {baal} and if her and morgan/gary^3 come home from biology class talking about how ID makes more sense than evolution, the katana will come out
[16:52:20] {ormus} i hope it’s a boy
[16:52:28] {baal} G-3?
[16:52:31] {baal}
[16:52:47] {baal} doesn’t matter to me at this point, I’m already soaked in estrogen
[16:53:13] {ormus} the name morgan doesn’t do much for me
[16:53:25] {baal} well, it’s short for Morganna
[16:53:30] {ormus} true
[16:53:35] {baal} and I like that name
[16:53:42] {ormus} just seems like a masculine name
[16:53:48] {ormus} oh wait
[16:53:57] {ormus} i guess it’s that, too
[16:54:24] {baal} if it’s a girl, it has to be some sort of evil name
[16:54:28] {baal} because isabella is really good
[16:54:35] {baal} so I figure her sister will be pure evil
[16:54:36] {ormus} true

[17:59:57] {nule} freaking midges everywhere tonight
[18:00:04] {nule} what the hell is the ecological point of those bugs?
[18:00:31] {nule} must have been the intelligent designer…
[18:00:43] {ormus} yeah, i know what you mean
[18:00:54] {nule} “let’s see, how about a bug that doesn’t do anything except piss off people who don’t like midges in their house”
[18:02:15] {ormus} gotta go get the candy ready
[18:02:49] {nule} I wonder what parents would think if I make the kids fish the candy out of my pockets…
[18:04:02] {nule} f*ck – here they come
[18:05:10] {nule} and I just broke the weather stripping on my door
[18:07:16] {ormus} i hear a kid crying down the street
[18:07:22] {nule} nice
[18:07:25] {nule} and so it begins
_______________________________
[18:14:39] {nule} are you in costume?
[18:14:43] {ormus} no
[18:14:48] {ormus} i didn’t want to scare them
[18:14:49] {nule} I’m “drunk computer programmer”
[18:14:52] {ormus} or their parents, for that matter
[18:15:04] {nule} yeah, that costume you had would traumatize them
[18:15:09] {ormus} i’m just the guy who salivates a lot as he looks at your kids
[18:15:16] {nule} hold on
[18:15:22] {ormus} uhoh…activity?
[18:15:28] * ormus takes up position behind nule
________________________________
[19:36:00] {baal} i told some parents here that their kids costume was queer :)
[19:36:08] {baal} he was jeff, the purple wiggle
[19:36:13] {baal} I’m like WTF is that about
[19:36:18] {nule} nice
[19:36:26] {baal} purple wiggle? – I’ll gut you, you sissy